FULL TRANSCRIPT: Please note this transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors. 

00:00:01:04 – 00:00:33:00

This is the Portrait System Podcast, a show that helps portrait photographers and people hoping to become one, navigate the world of photography, business, money and so much more. We totally keep it real. We share stories about the incredible ups and the very difficult downs when running a photography business. I’m your host, Nikki Closser. And the point of this podcast is for you to learn actionable steps that you can take to grow your own business and also to feel inspired and empowered by the stories you hear. Today’s Clubhouse episode is with your host, Kevin and Ashleigh, and their special guest this week is Bri Oro.

00:00:33:16 – 00:01:04:24

We often talk about how providing hair and makeup styling can just be a huge relief to your clients. And Bri, as an expert hairstylist who has worked with Sue for years and who has by far given me the best blow outs of my life. She chats with Ashleigh and Kevin all about how stylists can truly make a difference for photographers and also just about how you can communicate better with your stylists. And as always, they end it with some questions and answers from the audience. And this is a really good one. So stay tuned for Bree, Kevin and Ashleigh.

00:01:05:10 – 00:01:35:17

Welcome, everyone, to the Portraits and podcast clubhouse edition. My name is Kevin and I’m here with my co-host, Ashleigh Taylor. If you are not familiar with the Portrait System, we are portrait photography podcast that is powered by Sue Bryce Education. Nikki Closser host our regular Monday episodes and Ashley and I host our clubhouse addiction, which is live here on the clubhouse app every Friday at noon Pacific. And then our episodes are released on Thursdays. You can tune in on your favorite podcast app by searching for the portrait system.

00:01:36:09 – 00:01:37:26

And Ashleigh, how are you doing today?

00:01:38:17 – 00:02:10:04

I’m doing good, Kevin. I’m so excited to be here cohosting our chat again with you today. And I’m so excited to introduce our guest for today, Bri Orozco. She’s a hair and makeup artist based in Los Angeles. And I’m pretty sure most of you know her because she has worked with Sue Bryce for so many years and is in so many of the video that we know and love on the SBE website. So welcome, Bri. Hi, everyone. Happy Friday. It’s it’s good to be here.

00:02:10:06 – 00:02:14:21

Yay! We’re excited to have you. Well, are we ready to start Kevin? Sure.

00:02:14:23 – 00:02:46:10

Perfect. Welcome to the podcast. I am personally excited to have you on because it gives me the opportunity, gives us the opportunity to learn about one of the big pieces that makes up Sue’s process and that you are a big part of with hair and makeup. So to start off, one of the questions we see come in time and time again in the Sue Bryce Facebook group is how to find that perfect hair and makeup artist to be your right hand person on photo shoots.

00:02:47:06 – 00:03:02:04

There are many questions around this, but the most basic question is how do you find a hair and makeup artist? Where should we begin looking? And maybe tell us how you became Sue’s hair and makeup artist.

00:03:02:06 – 00:03:32:21

OK, so this is actually a question that I get asked quite often, and I understand how hard it is to find someone who does both hair and makeup well and is also a good addition to the team because you can be a great hair and makeup artist, but not be that great of a person. And that energy is definitely going to change like the vibe. So not only am I good hair and makeup artist, but it’s about being a good person, bringing good energy to the team. And yeah.

00:03:33:03 – 00:04:09:11

So what I like to tell whoever is asking me is go get your hair done. Go look around at the local beauty beauty salons. If there is any blow dry bar in the area, Sephora, even, because there’s a good chance that those artists working in those salons are looking for a side like a side gig or just to get out of where they are all together. I’ll give you an example. I worked with a new makeup artist last week, Wednesday, who worked with an on demand beauty service.

00:04:09:22 – 00:04:41:14

And I asked girls like, do you freelance as well? And she was like, well, I’m working with this company right now, but I want to get out. So we’re out there. We we don’t want to be working for other people. We want to find a photographer, get connected with other photographers and do that type of work. So go get your hair done. Go ask your friends where they get their hair done, who does their hair, do they like them? Um, that’s probably the first huge thing is going to beauty salons and Sephoras and even Alta they have makeup artists.

00:04:41:16 – 00:05:13:21

There are also to like I’m sure they don’t want to be working there forever. Just throw out the idea, like hire them for a test shoot and see see where it goes from there. I love that you just mentioned hire them for a test shoot, because that was kind of our follow up question to how you find someone is. How do you go about, like, trialing someone and does the rate change when it’s a trial? What is the process of it if it’s a trial? How do you really go about testing that person, if you think you might have found them

00:05:15:18 – 00:05:46:25

when? OK, so you guys know I’m not working with Sue as often anymore, so I have more free time to work with other photographers. And before I even do their hair and makeup, I meet with the photographer one on one, and then we kind of go from there because if we meet someone one on one and we’re getting like good vibes, then the photographer could be like, OK, could you come in and like, you know, do my hair and makeup? And then I feel like it’s best to have them start on yourself first.

00:05:47:26 – 00:06:35:10

So, like, see how they do your own hair and makeup and if you like that. And that’s when I would move forward and bring in a client or, you know, if you have a friend to come in who’s free for the day, who wants to get hair and makeup done just so you can see how they work. But I always meet with new photographers one on one before I start working with them. That’s really good advice, actually, I just hired a your hair and makeup artist and I did go to coffee with her one on one first. So yeah, it’s really important to make sure that you at least for me, it was like all that having that conversation, like what I do in my shoes and what she used to do when she worked with people and like having that conversation to see if it was even aligned before we took it to the next step of a trial.

00:06:36:03 – 00:06:37:06

Exactly.

00:06:38:03 – 00:06:40:17

You find someone and you trial them out.

00:06:42:05 – 00:06:57:16

As I said, I’m a guy. I don’t know what it’s like. How do you determine what is good makeup? How do you know that you’re doing a good job? And how do you know that would be ready to be working with the client, I guess?

00:06:58:11 – 00:07:36:09

Well, this would be something that you could do. Kevin is maybe kind of look through magazines or look through other photographers’ portfolios and kind of pick out a few looks that you like that you would like to see being done. So that way, when you do when the artists do come in and test with you, you kind of have like a like a photo reference of what you’re looking for when you hire someone, you know. OK, yeah. Yeah. So like what what do you want to be photographing. Like I’d look up like beauty shots or like go through Sue’s Instagram and kind of like check images like what do I want my makeup to look like.

00:07:36:11 – 00:07:44:03

So that way when we get there we’re like, OK, this is a type of look you’re going for. Let me show you how I do that look and then you can kind of see what

00:07:44:20 – 00:08:05:06

how they are. Should I be asking the makeup artist for a portfolio of photography that isn’t retouched? Because we know that once a photographer takes an image, they’ll go ahead and they’ll retouch it, too. That could potentially get rid of any of the flaws that the makeup artist has previously had. Is that something that

00:08:07:05 – 00:08:11:08

makeup artists would have? So I can see what their actual work looks like?

00:08:11:22 – 00:08:42:13

Yeah, I mean, they should have like besides the finished, like, final photo, we should we as artists should be taking photos of our work as soon as we’re done. So any time I have a client in the chair before they even get in front of the camera, I’m taking photos of their hair and makeup with my phone. So that way I can see how it looks. And then when I see that final retouched image, I’m like, OK, it was just it still looks very similar. Like I know they’re not doing a bunch of retouching.

00:08:42:15 – 00:08:47:26

Like there’s no lipstick coming outside of the lipstick line. There’s no mascara underneath the eyes

00:08:49:15 – 00:09:06:27

and stuff like that. So, yes, they should have they should have their own portfolio with unretouched images like just off of their iPhone, at least I do. But I’ve been doing this for a very long time and I feel like artists should do that. We do want to see our work before it’s retouched.

00:09:07:24 – 00:09:08:09

Perfect.

00:09:08:21 – 00:09:09:06

Yeah.

00:09:09:27 – 00:09:24:20

So one of the things that you had said would be like the lipstick out of the mouth and I think you said masculinity. Are there red flags I should be looking at that could potentially tell me that this person isn’t ready that to start doing photo shoots?

00:09:25:04 – 00:09:59:18

Yeah, I would say sanitation first and foremost, especially now like with covid and everything. And even before covid, we’re a very we need to be sanitizing our things. We work in people’s personal space. We’re putting our hands on their face, around the eyes, around the mouth, like everything needs to be as clean as humanly possible. So that’s definitely a huge thing that I look for. You want to see their kit? Is their kit cleaned? Is their makeup like all over the containers?

00:10:01:16 – 00:10:29:00

Are they taking care of their products, how do they set up their station and just little like prep things like that and then see how they interact with the client? Like, obviously, they could be a little bit nervous, like, OK, I’m testing for a job, essentially, but if they have a good… good communication with the client. That’s a huge thing as well, select communication with the client, sanitation above all.

00:10:31:15 – 00:10:35:05

Yeah, those are like the two really huge things, if they have those two, then.

00:10:36:20 – 00:11:16:17

It should be you should be good. Yeah, I think that’s so important to the sanitation thing because, you know, with covid I know this whole year, I’ll get clients who are asking me, even not just the kit, but like, is the artist wearing a mask? Are they double masking before the vaccinations came out? Right. Questions like that. And it was one of those things that I had to, you know, keep going back and forth with my hair and makeup artists and making sure that they understood which clients were especially afraid of covid and really wanted that double masks or,

00:11:16:19 – 00:11:47:03

Right. Once we did a face shield, that kind of stuff, too. What do you think? Like now that vaccinations are more prevalent, like what extra steps should hair makeup artists be taking to make clients feel comfortable? I ask them if they’re well, first of all, I’ll ask them if they’re vaccinated and if they’re comfortable with me having my mask off. If they’re not comfortable with that, I will. I’ll put mine on just because, like I said, we are in their face still and I’m vaccinated also.

00:11:47:05 – 00:12:13:17

But there have been times where we’re just like a small crew of like four or five and I still have my mask on. So it’s it just depends. But definitely ask the client, like, if it’s comfortable for you, I will leave this on. Yeah. I think I’m really, really smart. It’s been kind of a weird the last few shoots. I have kind of been so weird because at least where I’m based, like so many people are vaccinated and things have really started becoming like masks off

00:12:15:06 – 00:12:26:17

is becoming more normal. And then it’s like this weird thing of like, oh like do I start with my mask? Do I start with my mask off? It’s so awkward. Exactly. Someone tell me what to do.

00:12:28:25 – 00:13:01:02

And yeah, I’m thinking about this myself. Should I text the client the day before and see how they feel? And that’s kind of what I decided on, that I would just like text clients before because yeah, my artist is amazing, but she could come in one day without her mouth, but she used to enter with her mask on, which actually came in with an offer, but she still had it with her and then asked like, oh, how do you feel? And I was like, oh well if they were upset it would probably be bad. Yeah. Yeah. Oh sure. So, yeah, it’s like just I think communication is so important.

00:13:01:04 – 00:13:02:03

Like having these

00:13:04:03 – 00:13:13:29

conversations, especially these days with covid is just something that we all need to remember, even if we’ve been doing this for a long time. Yeah, definitely.

00:13:14:19 – 00:13:27:20

So we have let’s see, we have cleanliness, we have energy, communication. Are there any other traits or skills that the photographer should be looking for when deciding on their hair and makeup artists that you feel would be important?

00:13:29:16 – 00:13:42:01

I mean, I feel like energy is such a huge thing for me, which is why I’m so into the idea of having a one on one first before you even see them do makeup.

00:13:44:12 – 00:14:22:27

Yeah, but once once you’re past that, they’re in the studio, they’re with a client. You’re watching them do their work. Yeah, I just I feel like you’ll see it if they’re super confident in how they are, they’re super confident in their work. Like that’s going to show up. If they’re nervous, they’re panicking, they’re flushed. You’re going to see that, too. So it’s it’s something you just have to watch and see what happens, you know, but going into it with meeting before you kind of cut down on some of the nerves, but you can’t really know until you see them actually do things.

00:14:23:17 – 00:14:54:01

Yeah. And that’s why it is so important, I think, to have a test shoot like a mistake I made really early on in my this is an embarrassing mistake. Really early on in my career was I met someone who had a like a beauty studio down the hall for me. And I thought and she told me she did her makeup and I was like, oh, this is going to be great. We met. We feel like we got along well. And I just booked her in with a client and it was a very young teenage girl looking for like acting headshots.

00:14:54:03 – 00:15:00:09

And this woman made her look like, I don’t know, like too much on the lips.

00:15:01:28 – 00:15:19:10

The eyes were crazy. And I was just like, oh, my goodness, yeah. The girls face was filled with, like, panic, like, oh, my God. This doesn’t look like me. Someone help. Yeah. What’s happening? So that was a very painful,

00:15:21:10 – 00:15:57:10

very painful and expensive lesson because obviously I had to re-shoot. I had to hire someone else, I still had to pay that person for their time. I’m so yes. If anyone listening to this can take from my mistakes, definitely do not just put someone brand new with a client, before you tested them out, I learned that the very hard way. Yeah, for sure. And also, like when you do bring them into test, like bring them in with an idea of what you want already so you know exactly what you want to say. You want like I just want a natural natural face, like smooth skin, pretty eyes and see what they come up with.

00:15:57:12 – 00:16:37:00

Or tell them that you want a smoky eye and you want like a more glam evening look and then see what they come up with. Because if you let them go in there and just freestyle, you don’t really know what you’re going to come up with. So when you do get them in there, make sure you tell them exactly the look that you’re looking for. I think. Yeah, that’s so helpful. One other question that I have for you is, what do you do if you try someone and, you know, they have great energy and they have great like skills in some area, like you said earlier, it’s hard to find someone who is good at hair and makeup.

00:16:37:02 – 00:16:55:11

So maybe they can do hair, but it’s not their strong suit. But you can tell that they’re good at make up or vice versa. Like, how do you have that conversation? That’s like I really want this to work out, but you got to like up your skills are what training might you provide them? Like, what do you suggest people do in that situation?

00:16:56:27 – 00:17:29:22

Well, this actually is me because I am so strong at hair. I’ve been doing hair for 14 years, like I can do hair with my eyes closed. But when Sue introduced me to not introduce me because I had I played around with makeup before, but when she told me, like, hey, I think you should do makeup for my clients, like all of the stuff, I was just like, wait, what am I doing now? And there are a lot of awesome resources on SBE that even I looked through like all of the makeup guides I looked through.

00:17:31:06 – 00:18:03:25

And I have a lot of friends in the industry, so I just reached out to them and I’m like, I’m a hair stylist, but I want to know how to do light makeup. So like headshots, I’m just like really pretty soft skin, like, how can I do that? And I was lucky that I had the contacts who are willing to give me that kind of information. But if that’s something that you want, we as artists have to go out and do that. I mean, it would be nice if you guys paid for education for us, but that’s not expected, you know.

00:18:04:12 – 00:18:04:27

Yeah.

00:18:05:06 – 00:18:22:23

Yeah, we’re so if that’s the case, where would you recommend someone that is looking for that type of like maybe up their game? Is there any form of, like, I don’t know, go through schooling? Is that what you’d recommend? Just as simple as like YouTube or what?

00:18:22:25 – 00:19:02:05

Yeah, I mean, especially now like, gosh, the Internet, you can literally learn how to do anything on the Internet, YouTube. And my my only thing though with YouTube and Instagram is that those makeup looks are so heavy and like overdone. And if that’s not the look that you want for your client, then I wouldn’t necessarily refer them to those those platforms like YouTube and Instagram, but even just like search online, like make makeup courses and you can take a course for like fifty dollars and watch it like as often as you want.

00:19:03:23 – 00:19:37:12

Yeah. Just stuff like that. Like I still I mean I told you guys I’ve been doing here for 14 years but I subscribe to a higher education site, so I’m constantly learning and I’m trying to up my hair game still and I’ve been doing this for a while. So there is education on the Internet for everyone at every price point. It’s just a matter of going out and looking for it. That’s really awesome. And I’m glad that you mentioned that SBE has a lot of information, too, that you even learn from, because, I mean, that’s obviously we all love SBE and it’s affordable.

00:19:37:14 – 00:20:12:09

And it’s such a great way, I think, for our makeup artists to also understand a little bit more about our expectations as photographers by watching the videos. I’m sure you also see, you know, the assisting that goes on. And that kind of brings me to my next question, which is I think that all of us photographers who have followed you and Sue’s relationship for a long time dream of having that person. Everyone wants their own Bri, to read their mind and make their clients look amazing.

00:20:12:11 – 00:20:18:29

And how does a photographer develop and foster that kind of tight knit

00:20:20:29 – 00:20:52:16

synchronistic relationship with their hair and makeup artist? Yeah, it’s so crazy because I felt like when Sue when I first met each other, it was just kind of like, oh, like we felt that it was going to work, you know. And when I work with her, when we’re on set and she’s shooting, I’m literally standing, like, right next to her or like on the other side of her. And I, I can see what she’s looking at. So if I see it and I catch it first, that’s what makes it easier.

00:20:52:18 – 00:21:22:05

But that was also a skill that I cultivated over time, was seeing what Sue is seeing and me fixing it before she has to say anything. So it’s just spending a bunch of time together. I mean, when we first met, we were shooting like three or four times a week and this was seven years ago. So, you know, having all of those shoots. In the beginning and figuring out our styles and figuring out how we work together,

00:21:23:27 – 00:21:54:26

yeah, it’s it’s something that’s built over time for sure. I mean, obviously, not with Sue and I, because we’re amazing. But no, I’m just kidding. You know, it’s just something that it takes time. And also another good thing is when you do find your your artist, show us the back of the camera, because sometimes when we’re looking at it just with our eyes, we can’t see like these like crazy flyways or like the little holes in the hair, like show us the back of that camera and then we’ll just go in and fix it.

00:21:55:22 – 00:22:20:11

So in that case, would it be useful then to show you like because I know the back of the camera might be a little small and obviously you don’t want to continue to do that while on the right. Is it helpful for you then to potentially get, like, unedited images sent to you and then having like a discussion like, you know, these five images? This is kind of what was wrong. Yeah. We can fix for the next time around.

00:22:21:04 – 00:22:53:04

Yeah, absolutely. And like the artist should take that not as you trying to pick apart their work, but you just trying to get across what you want to get out of the photo. So that’s a great idea. And I wish you know, when I first started doing hair many moons ago, like, I wish someone showed me all that stuff and said, hey, these photos were great, but this and this and this is what I think we need to work on. And the artist shouldn’t take it personally. You have to have thick skin.

00:22:53:13 – 00:23:28:03

Well, yeah. You guys know, like you guys have thick skin too working with clients and stuff. So we shouldn’t take any of this personally because we’re all here to learn and keep growing and to create beautiful images. And aside from like, obviously telling the artists to stay next to you and showing them the back of the camera and everything. What other things can we do to train our hair makeup artist to be better, like on set assistance and kind of anticipate our our moves a little bit more I.

00:23:28:12 – 00:23:57:06

Do you feel like a lot of times when I work with someone new that they don’t really have a lot of set experience. Right. There are more, you know. Yeah, they’re usually they’re new, they’re more used to kind of doing the makeup and leaving kind of like a wedding where. So it’s sort of a brand new world to them. And it does take a lot of a lot of communication. Yeah. They’re like there are certain things that we should do to train them?

00:23:59:21 – 00:24:33:10

again. Like this kind of goes back to communication, like tell us if you’re paying us for the day or for the shoot, tell us what you want us to do. Like once hair and makeup is done, be like, OK, we’re going to go on set now, I want you to stand next to me. I want you to go toss this fabric and tell us how to toss the fabric, or I want you to blow dry her hair and then tell us how you want the hair blown. You know, so especially in the beginning, like. Yeah, like Sue was always very like do A, B, C, like do one, two, three.

00:24:33:12 – 00:25:04:18

And I was just like, OK. And I did it like I wasn’t like, OK, why is she telling me to do all this stuff? Like I she told me to do something and I did it. So that’s the thing. It’s like don’t be afraid to let them know what you want to see done. And then over time it’s kind of like, oh, we’re bringing out the fabric, OK, I know I have to stand on this side or oh, we’re going to do like the Beyonce hair. OK, I know where I need to aim the blow dryer, you know, but in the beginning, like, Sue had to tell me things.

00:25:04:20 – 00:25:35:26

I mean, even now, sometimes she’ll tell me, like, Bri, her hair, Bri, her hair. And I’m just like, oh, shoot. Like, OK, OK. So it’s like keeping that communication open. Like, don’t just start shooting and then not talk to us and then we’re just kind of standing there like, OK, so what do we do now, you know. Yeah. Yeah. So and then yeah in the beginning like talk to us not, not so much boss us around but tell me what you want me to do like you’re paying me right now. What do you want to see happen.

00:25:36:20 – 00:25:52:27

And I think to like that’s so important because we just want to it’s I think that communication is important to finding someone who actually wants to be that involved in the shoot, because I’ve got hair and makeup artists who are like, no, that

00:25:54:12 – 00:26:35:20

is not for me. I just do that hair. And like, truly, because I I think a lot of my artists have come from the wedding world because Santa Barbara is such a wedding destination and a lot of hair makeup artists who do weddings are only busy on the weekends and then are looking for the extra pick up work. All right. So, yeah, I think it’s also important, like you said, going back to that first step of having that first conversation, like make sure that that person really actually wants to be really involved that way, because it is really awkward when you start trialing or start working with someone and you kind of get the sense that they’d rather be on their phone for the photo shoot.

00:26:36:02 – 00:27:06:22

Yeah, exactly. And I’ve when I’ve done bigger shoots and there’s like two hair and makeup artist there and I’ve you know, I see the other artists just kind of like sitting in the chair on the phone and I’m standing up like on set, like doing things. I’m just like, dude, do you not want to be here or but, you know, they probably don’t want to be there, or they didn’t know that this is what they signed up for. So that’s something that should definitely be discussed.

00:27:06:24 – 00:27:39:25

When you do have like your one on one, like, oh, I also like have my artist stay to assist on set. Is that something you’re interested in? If so, here’s ABC. Like, don’t tell us the date. Don’t tell us when we get to the shoot. Like, oh, you have to stay to assist because most of the time they’re going to be like, no, like that. Yeah. That should be something that should be discussed before. And if they have like because now I have my hair and makeup or my hair rate and then my assisting is additional per hour.

00:27:40:21 – 00:28:28:19

So I just started doing that maybe like within the year. So I have like my two fifty hair and makeup and then my assistant is forty dollars an hour after that. But that’s because I do do know I’m blowing the hair, I’m helping them change their outfits, I’m still changing the hair, I’m tossing fabric and doing all that stuff. So it’s, it’s definitely worth it. And I don’t know if other artists will be charging that much for assisting right out the gate. But yeah, it’s definitely something that we want to know before we get to the shoot that you do need an assistant, OK. And that you brought up pricing, which was a really good transition, because I think I know it really varies depending on what parts of the country people live in and everything, but

00:28:30:11 – 00:28:59:18

how do you discuss money with artists and like hair? How should photographers, I guess, discuss money with hair makeup artists and what is kind of industry standard? Should there be that expectation of an additional rate? You used to do a flat fee, if I remember correctly. So can you kind of just like walk us through that? Because I think that’s a sensitive thing that a lot of photographers don’t know how to handle, how to go about? Yeah, definitely.

00:29:01:03 – 00:29:37:02

So, yeah, when I when I first started working with Sue, she kind of gave me like a flat rate, like, OK, this is what I’m going to pay you, and this is what you’re going to do. And I was like, OK, that sounds great. But when I had met Sue, I had just left the salon life, so I was open to work whatever for any rate, just to not be in the salon anymore. So when I first started working with her, she told me what she was going to pay me. And then a couple of years went by, and I started getting busier with other photographers, with my own clients.

00:29:37:04 – 00:30:16:16

And then I told her I was like, Hey, Sue, you know, it’s been a couple of years. I’ve been growing my own business on the side. These are my new rates now. And she was like, OK, so when you’re starting off with someone, you can offer what you would want to pay them and see how they respond or ask them. Oh, so what are your rates for doing something like this? If they’re leaving the salon and they’ve never done on set work like this, I as a photographer would just tell them, I’m going to pay you one hundred and fifty dollars to come in to do hair and makeup, because when you say, no, they don’t.

00:30:17:02 – 00:30:53:00

They don’t. Really know any better at that point, so if you are getting someone who is just leaving the salon, I as a photographer would dictate the price and see how they go, see how it goes from there. Got it. So this is a time where we do open it up to questions from the audience. So if you do have a question for Bree, go ahead and raise your hand and we will bring you up on stage. And I see that Felicia has her hand raised, so we’ll go ahead and bring Felicia on.

00:30:54:05 – 00:30:57:02

Did it work? There she is. OK, so

00:30:57:05 – 00:31:01:14

This is only my second time on Clubhouse. I didn’t know I’m supposed to push a button.

00:31:04:24 – 00:31:09:00

What what would you like to join in and ask?

00:31:09:14 – 00:31:54:06

OK, this was right on time, Bri. Thank you for sharing. So as many of you know, I am growing like insane. I have like seven contract hair and makeup artists and it’s just constantly whenever I try a client calls in and books me that I’m like, OK, I book them. Then I got to pray to God that somebody is going to fill it, you know, and I have to go through like seven of them. Are you available? Are you available? So I think I’m at the point where I potentially need like one person, like, how do I even go about it? I know. Bri, did you work exclusively with Sue like she was your primary and then you did things on the side? I’m trying to figure out how to navigate this and how do I approach these hair and makeup artists, maybe the ones that I even have right now? I mean, I’m willing to pay like I have a full time assistant already, so I don’t mind paying a salary.

00:31:54:09 – 00:32:21:08

I just don’t want to hurt, like, offend anybody. I don’t know, you know, but I want to say, hey, I’m looking for like an exclusive. I’m your primary person and I’m willing to, like, work then those Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays and I’m there. I don’t know anymore. I mean, I need advice on how to navigate this growing spurt that I’m in and have consistency. And I know always someone’s going to be available.

00:32:21:25 – 00:32:57:28

Yeah. First of all, that’s awesome that you’re looking to, like, lock somebody down. When I first started working with Sue, I, I, she was my, not my priority, she was my main photographer that I worked with. So any time she needed me, I was… she was first, you know, and then all of my other clients and everybody else was after that. But that’s only because she guaranteed me those four or five days a week. And who’s going to turn that down? Who’s going to turn down guaranteed like three to four shifts a week? Like.

00:32:58:00 – 00:33:28:13

No, you know, so I jumped at that. I was like, yes, I will be with you any any time you need me. Yes, I will be there. So just do, you know, talk to your two or three strongest artists and, you know, come with them and be like, hey, I’m getting busier. Like, I want to lock you down. I think if we have that guarantee that we will be working a couple of days a week with you, that’s a pretty sweet selling point for sure. OK, OK.

00:33:28:26 – 00:33:29:11

Yeah.

00:33:29:13 – 00:33:34:14

So it would just be like you were always like contract work with her. It wasn’t a full-time position,

00:33:34:16 – 00:33:40:27

No, it wasn’t full time because I was still seeing my other personal clients when I had time.

00:33:40:29 – 00:33:46:21

Yes, I see, I see. That’s what I, that’s what I was wondering how that works in the real well in the big league world

00:33:48:19 – 00:33:53:21

that works. So this is good. This is good. Well, thank you very much for the information. And this is a great topic.

00:33:54:00 – 00:34:06:09

Yeah, of course. Thank you so much. Thanks, Felicia. We also have a question from David Frankel. So, David, come on and ask your question.

00:34:06:25 – 00:34:49:00

I have a quick question. So I’m a photographer based out of Los Angeles, and I don’t really use hair and makeup services often. A lot of my clients either do it themselves or they you know, I will help them, like, find somebody. But I want to start offering that as a service myself. And I wasn’t sure is there kind of like in that world, is there specifically hair, makeup people that specifically work for photographers? I mean, is it kind of like a whole industry in itself or is it kind of like a general field of like hair and makeup artistry that just kind of like they sometimes will work with photographers? Like because I just don’t really know how to

00:34:49:19 – 00:34:59:29

you know when I’m in my search to find someone that I want to build a relationship with. I want to make sure finding the right people that I know make up specifically for photography. So I would love your thoughts on that.

00:35:00:21 – 00:35:16:25

Yeah, OK, you can hire me because I’m in Los Angeles, but yeah, I feel like doing hair and makeup for photographers, it is a certain type of makeup. It’s not bridal, it’s not like event makeup.

00:35:18:22 – 00:35:36:03

And it’s I wouldn’t say there’s like a certain group of artists who just do that, but if you ever need referrals or other artists like I know so many artists out in L.A. who do just work with photographers and stuff.

00:35:36:05 – 00:35:49:17

So I really appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah, I, I’ve been that’s kind of the issue I’ve been having is that sometimes people have their hair makeup done, and it looks like beautiful in person, but it doesn’t necessarily translate to photos. So on the

00:35:49:19 – 00:35:50:23

camera. Right.

00:35:50:27 – 00:35:57:06

Right. So I just want to make sure that, you know, I’m asking the right questions in my search, but I really appreciate it. Thank you.

00:35:57:19 – 00:36:18:19

Yeah, of course. And then when you are, like, looking for artists, ask them, like, have you worked on shoots before? Or like, what type of work do you usually do? And then if they’ve worked with photographers, they should know, like, OK, this is like a different type type of makeup than like bridal an event, so. Yeah, cool,

00:36:18:21 – 00:36:21:05

yeah, I’ll tell you for sure. Thank you so much.

00:36:21:13 – 00:36:32:14

Awesome, of course. Thanks, David. OK, now we have a question from Carrie. So if you could also let us know your last name and ask your question, you can go ahead and unmute yourself.

00:36:33:19 – 00:36:54:10

So I’m Carrie Struble from New Hampshire. My wife and I run Birchlace Studios. And my question is, I recently met with a makeup artist. I’ve been having trouble finding someone that does both. And so am I just sort of you know, I feel like it’s going to cost me more money to have

00:36:55:26 – 00:37:03:14

hair and makeup artist, a hair artist and a makeup artist, stylist. Is that just my fate since I can’t find one person that

00:37:05:06 – 00:37:18:27

is there? How can I handle the two of them and come up with a price that works for for a session that we’re doing, etc.. I’d be interested to hear any thoughts that you might have on that.

00:37:19:26 – 00:37:50:28

Yeah. So we we did kind of touch on this earlier. I know you said that you haven’t listened to the whole thing, but I was telling them that if you find a makeup artist who’s great, like, amazing at makeup, but her hair skills are kind of like underwhelming, you can offer some education to them, like, oh, if you find an education course, like, let me pay for that for you. So that way, you know, they’re learning these skills from somewhere.

00:37:51:00 – 00:38:27:12

And as soon as they learn them, they’re bringing that to your shoot so you can go and offer, like education to them. It’s not super pricey. Like there is so many so many different education sites on the Internet that you can find. It’s like fifty dollar classes that they can re-watch watch over and over. I know a couple hairstylists who offer education, and I can send you the links and like just have your makeup artist kind of sit down and just watch videos and show them the type of hair that you’re going for and see what see what they can do with that.

00:38:27:14 – 00:38:48:00

But I know it’s hard finding someone who does do both. So if you’re looking for that and they don’t do that, just kind of throw that out like, oh, would you be interested in learning makeup? Would you be interested in learning how to do hair and then kind of go from there, see what your options are like, offer them education or see if that’s something that they’d want to do on their own?

00:38:49:05 – 00:39:21:07

OK, yeah, that sounds like a good idea to try. This particular makeup artist that I met with just didn’t seem to I mean, we didn’t really talk about her increasing her learning abilities or hair abilities, but she seems like kind of like that’s just not her strong point. You know, she’s doing a lot of weddings this summer and she’s just pretty confident, I think, that she’s just she’s a makeup artist and that’s what she does.

00:39:21:09 – 00:39:29:18

So. Yeah. So, yeah, I can explore that, but I may still have to have one of each.

00:39:29:24 – 00:39:46:01

It’s potentially. Also another thing. Wherever you are, they’re just like blow dry bars or salons where they can just the client can just go in. But they would have to pay for that though if they did it themselves.

00:39:46:12 – 00:40:21:21

Hm. Yeah, I’m not sure I’ve just recently become aware of that term. So I don’t think anything like that in our area where we live in a tourist area, it’s not super highly populated, like a city like Boston. But but yeah, I mean, I haven’t met with.. She works with a hairstylist and I’m going to meet with her too shortly. So so we’ll just maybe take it as it comes and see if, you know, they might know people.

00:40:21:26 – 00:40:22:11

Yeah.

00:40:22:17 – 00:40:40:09

Yeah. And definitely like don’t be afraid to ask the artist like, oh what do you know anyone who does hair like we’re not going to take it personally because we don’t do what you’re asking for, you know. So yeah, definitely don’t be afraid to ask, like do you know anybody who does or who would be willing to do hair, you know.

00:40:41:05 – 00:40:45:18

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate your insights.

00:40:46:01 – 00:40:46:29

Of course.

00:40:47:28 – 00:40:49:07

Thank you very much. OK,

00:40:50:28 – 00:40:56:03

so if a few follow up with the questions that were asked. With Felicia,

00:40:58:04 – 00:41:13:24

once Sue basically said that you would be working with her. Were you strictly working those Monday, Wednesday, Friday type of deals and no more work with photographers, simply your clients, or were you filling in on the sides kind of like whenever not.

00:41:13:26 – 00:41:47:12

Oh, yeah, I was filling in for sure. As long as Sue told me, I need you Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, every other day, you can go do your thing, and that’s what I did. That’s when I worked with my own personal clients, when I worked with other photographers. But those days that she needed me, I was with her. It’s having that guarantee that we’re going to be working, because if you say, oh, I could probably I could probably book like three or four shoots a week. Well, I could probably book three or four shoots a week, too.

00:41:47:27 – 00:41:51:15

So it’s like you need a guarantee. Yeah, exactly.

00:41:53:27 – 00:42:10:19

So with Carrie’s question, I really like the fact that, like you actually said that the photographer could potentially pay for the course that you’re doing that you want them to do, because that is such a great opportunity to build that relationship between the two of you.

00:42:10:23 – 00:42:11:18

Yes.

00:42:11:20 – 00:42:18:07

Photographer and hair and makeup to show that they’re dedicated to you to the long run.

00:42:18:23 – 00:42:52:14

Yeah, the longevity of it. Like you’re interested in seeing where what the future of this could be and just to go back on like the education. But when the pandemic started, I started offering hairstyling lessons over Zoom and I met with photographers like in Texas. I think Ashleigh we had kind of scheduled to do something. But I feel like I’m finding I’m finding more makeup artists who just want to do like light on set hair.

00:42:52:16 – 00:43:00:18

And that’s what I teach in those classes, is what I do when I’m on set so that you can do killer makeup and have

00:43:02:13 – 00:43:04:27

decent hair to your ability.

00:43:06:13 – 00:43:52:24

Yeah, exactly. And I think that that’s so helpful for photographers to know that, like, we can just take matters into our own hands. And maybe if you can’t even afford the full course, sometimes you could offer to split it like there’s ways to get creative about it. Yeah, I’m sure of those conversations and see what people are, like, willing to do, because I think ultimately it comes down to like, how willing is someone to like how much do they want to put into this? How willing are they and how excited are they for this type of work? Versus do they just want whatever work comes their way? Because some people just they don’t want that kind of commitment or relationship that some people do.

00:43:53:17 – 00:44:35:00

Exactly. And I think if you open up that line of communication like like Kevin was saying, like it shows that we’re invested in where this could possibly go, you know. Yes, I love it. One question I have for you is once we have our person that we’re working with, how much? And I guess this will probably vary from artist to artist, but how much like prep do you like to have before the shoot? Meaning like, do you like to come in? Just whatever it is that day is what it is, or should we be sending? Like I know last week we spoke to Leandra and she said she includes her hair and makeup artist on a Pinterest board.

00:44:35:12 – 00:45:07:03

I do a thing where I have like a questionnaire that I have my clients fill out about just like allergies and preferences and that kind of beauty stuff. And then I forward it to my hair makeup artist to read before the shoot. So there’s no surprises there. Like, what do you think photographers should do as best practices for proper preparation for the shoot? Yeah, that is definitely like what you said about sending like the client questionnaire to us too. So we can see like, oh, this is their type of vibe.

00:45:07:05 – 00:45:41:12

This is what they usually do because we don’t want to we don’t want to just come in with the client and give them a look that isn’t who they are. We want to make sure that we’re still making them look and feel like themselves. So the more the artist is prepared, the better we’ll be able to accommodate with whatever the client wants. So, yeah, that’s awesome. Like, I should start telling my photographers to send me that stuff too, because usually I just kind of get there and I’m like, OK, cool. Or they’ll tell me, oh, it’s just like a fifty over fifty woman or oh it’s just head shots.

00:45:41:14 – 00:46:15:24

So then I know it’s going to be OK, kind of simple, clean, polished. But yeah, if we know as much as you know then it leaves less room for error. And then another question I had is because this has happened a few times, even with my very best hair and  makeup artist who I love and adore, what what do you do when a client, their hair makeup has done? It seemed like it was going fine and all of a sudden they are looking in the mirror and they don’t like it.

00:46:17:05 – 00:46:38:12

And as a photographer, I could see extremely awkward, because you obviously want to make your client happy, you always are like freaking out for your hair and makeup artist and you don’t want to throw them under the bus. And it’s just so painfully terrible. So how do you get here? The first thing we do is cry. And, you

00:46:39:29 – 00:47:10:12

know, I mean, the first thing, honestly, that we have to do is just stay calm, because once we start getting nervous and anxious, the client is just going to start feeling more and more like crap. And we don’t want that. So we just kind of keep calm, keep it chill and just ask the client. Well, first of all, I feel like the clients, sometimes they feel like they can’t tell us the artist, that they don’t like it because they don’t want to hurt our feelings or like make a big deal.

00:47:11:05 – 00:47:45:12

But they do need to tell us that stuff because it’ll save so much drama and like stuff like that. So I feel like the client needs to be open with us. And then when we get that criticism back as artists, we should never take that personally, because if the client feels uncomfortable, I’m not going to have them walk around if they’re feeling like crap, you know? So there needs to be that open, that open line of communication. But if you’re at the end, you guys are all looking in the mirror and you’re like, OK, where do we go from here?

00:47:47:12 – 00:48:17:16

Where do we go from here? We just take it step by step, like start Tony, or ask her exactly what she’s not happy with and then target those specific things first. And then just kind of go from there, but it’s you got to stay calm. You have to stay like cool and collected, because once we show any signs of nervousness or panic the client, she’s going to feel worse. So stay calm and then ask them specific questions, what they aren’t happy with.

00:48:17:29 – 00:48:40:11

And if they just say, I’m not happy with any of it, I’d be like, well, why didn’t you say anything? Like two hours ago when I was doing your hair and makeup? You know, I wouldn’t say that. But it’s like, dude come on. Like, you have to have thick skin. Like, you can’t don’t worry about us. You’re the priority here, you know? So, yeah, I just feel like clients should be.

00:48:41:27 – 00:49:16:03

Yeah, they shouldn’t be scared. Yeah, like and that’s something that I start off with in the beginning, like they’re in front of a mirror when I’m doing their hair and makeup. I say, if you see anything weird or you’re uncomfortable with anything, like, please tell me, like, I’ve been doing this for a long time, I’m not going to get offended. And they’re like, oh, OK. Like, it kind of breaks that wall down and like clients have told me things like at the end they’re just like, oh, like this is a little too much on my eye. Can we tone it down or. Oh, I kind of feel like I look washed out. Can you just add a little more color to me? And I’m just like, yes, of course I will, you know what I’m going to say.

00:49:16:05 – 00:49:19:08

no, like, no, I’m not going to say that.

00:49:20:05 – 00:49:42:19

So this might take a lot of a lot of trust. And maybe you as a as a makeup artist wouldn’t want to do this. But would it be a good idea at all to maybe have you have a makeup consultation beforehand, or is that something that you just want to stay out of until the day of talking about what the client might potentially want on the day of the shoot?

00:49:43:29 – 00:49:56:01

No, that sounds great. I mean, if you, yeah, if you want to connect to the artist with the client beforehand. So that way they can kind of build start building like their relationship, you know.

00:49:58:03 – 00:50:23:20

But yeah, like especially through email, like just, you know, share their email address, be like, hey, I’m so-and-so, I’m going to be your artist tomorrow. Like what specifics. What exactly are you looking for. Like how do you how do you want to look? How do you want to feel? Because when we put the attention on them like this is about you, they’ll be more open to say, like, OK, I like ABC and I don’t want X, Y, Z, you know.

00:50:24:10 – 00:50:41:21

So an email conversation would probably be a good idea, maybe not like a sit down 30 minute face to face thing, but just like, hey, an introduction. Yeah. My makeup artist feel free to talk to them or maybe even giving you the email to give you the opportunity to reach out to them.

00:50:42:09 – 00:51:32:15

Yeah. Because that way, like I said, we can start building our relationships. So when we see them in the studio the next day, it’s like, oh hey, like I know the look you’re going for. You know what type of work I do like. Yeah. So that sounds great. Like the more like I was telling Ashleigh, like the more we know about the client, the less room there is for error. Bree, can I ask you a follow up question that kind of goes back to that awkward situation when clients are unhappy? What do you suggest is a good sort of after, you know, after everything has been done, like kind of a post mortem with the hair and makeup artist, like, assess? Can sometimes, you know, the shoot happens, whatever it whatever problem sort out.

00:51:32:23 – 00:51:46:28

But maybe like you notice, like, oh actually they are. And makeup artist did not stay calm, cool and collected and looked a little defensive or there were some real like, you know, sometimes it just seems like there should be some sort of post-mortem that goes down. Like what do you suggest about that?

00:51:48:16 – 00:52:26:05

I’ll tell you, just because this has happened to me once before, like the photographer just pulled me aside after the shoot, be like, hey, you know what happened earlier? Like, it’s not your fault, but it is something that we do have to work on. Like, are you willing to work on that? And I’m just like, yeah, of course, because I want to stay professional and I don’t want to burn any bridges. And if the photographer and the client are not happy, then I didn’t do, as an artist, I didn’t do my job right, you know, because my job is to make the client look good, to make you guys feel confident and like what you’re shooting and like knowing that the client looks good.

00:52:26:07 – 00:52:56:18

But, yeah, definitely pull us aside and just let us know, like, hey, dude, you’re not hey, dude, but whatever you call your artists and just let them know, like, you know, that situation could have been handled better. Like, I probably would have done A, B, C or something like that. But yeah, a conversation after something like that happening has to happen or else, you know, let’s hope that it doesn’t keep happening again. But we need to know what we did wrong because we’re not perfect.

00:52:57:00 – 00:53:09:08

You know, we don’t I don’t do every client like one hundred all the time and. Yeah, like just post mortem conversation after things like that definitely needs to happen. Awesome.

00:53:11:00 – 00:53:19:05

I was going to be a little selfish and ask a little bit, kind of like inside of it. Have you ever done makeup for guys and what are their reactions to it?

00:53:19:27 – 00:53:55:00

Men’s grooming. So I like to call it men’s grooming because when you say makeup, the guys are like, oh, well, I don’t want to look or like I don’t want to wear makeup, blah, blah, blah. Really men’s grooming, it’s more about the skin care. Like we want to make sure that the skin looks moisturized and hydrated. And as far as makeup goes, I usually do just a little translucent powder for the shine, some lip balm so their lips aren’t dry and cracky. And if they need it, I can do spot covering with concealer. But when you go about it, it’s men’s grooming, it sounds more sounds better and manly.

00:53:55:16 – 00:54:15:04

More manly. Yeah. Yeah. But with that it’s about the skin care. So make sure that they know they’re going to get you moisturized and prepped and their skin is going to look hydrated. And no, we don’t want to be photographing dry, dry men’s skin or just dry skin in general. Yeah.

00:54:15:21 – 00:54:43:15

So we here have kind of discussed the possibility of having video interviews as well. And with that, I know Ashliegh’s going to be able to put makeup on. She’s going to look fantastic. I’m going to look like a potato. What is there a difference in photographic versus video makeup and maybe some tips that I can, you know, to moving forward to? You know, it’s like if we do that, what

00:54:45:03 – 00:54:47:11

should I be looking at makeup as a guy or

00:54:49:03 – 00:54:49:24

not?

00:54:49:26 – 00:55:11:07

Not for like video call type of things. If you’re getting photographed and you’re feeling a little self-conscious, like, oh, maybe I do need a little concealer or something, put it on. But video calls, I think with video calls, because it’s like having the right lighting, like making sure that you don’t look blown out and like, yeah, just stay moisturized and put on a little lip balm and you should be good.

00:55:14:01 – 00:55:15:08

No potatoes here.

00:55:19:19 – 00:55:39:18

OK, so we are getting close to it and being someone that has worked so very closely with Sue I just thought I would like once again be a little selfish. And, you know, maybe if you can come up with a story of this funny situation to kind of close it out where you guys were on set, maybe something didn’t go right or something came to you guys as a surprise.

00:55:42:05 – 00:56:15:27

OK, I’m laughing because I have a story. So this was when Sue and I had first started working together, when she was living in Studio City and we were photographing, I forgot what the model’s name was. She was a dancer. She had super long hair. And I posted this photo a couple of years ago and we called it the happy accident. So we had, like, you know, one of those huge floor fans, like on the floor, like blowing hair around and something someone tripped over the fan or the fan just like toppled over.

00:56:15:29 – 00:56:47:25

And Genoa, her the model’s name,  and her hair just blew up into this gorgeous, gorgeous hair. Sue freaking captured that shot. And when we thought we were just like, oh, shit. Like happy accident. Like, everybody’s OK. But this photo is so fire. And I think this is in like 2015. So it was like when we first started working together, but yeah. Happy accidents and you just caught the freaking shot at the right time.

00:56:47:27 – 00:56:55:00

And it’s like one of my favorite shots I think that we’ve done so. Yeah. That’s fantastic.

00:56:56:18 – 00:57:05:17

so make sure you keep your finger on the trigger, OK. If anything goes wrong, just snap it anyway. Just yeah. Just just take the picture. Yeah.

00:57:07:28 – 00:57:08:13

Yeah.

00:57:08:26 – 00:57:26:16

Well it is been an absolute pleasure having you with us today. A lot of good information for people to listen back to. We have hit the one hour mark. But before we let you go, I want to be sure that people know where to find you. So if you can please share your socials with us.

00:57:27:10 – 00:57:52:11

Yes, sir. My Instagram is @bri_oro and I, I also do florals as well. So I’m combining a business with florals and hair. So if you guys want to check that out, it’s on Instagram @blowouts_blooms. I’ll be doing a lot of cool hair and floral things on that account.

00:57:54:00 – 00:58:01:11

Perfect. Everyone, please, please go follow Bree. And just a reminder, she’s in the L.A. area and she’s available.

00:58:02:03 – 00:58:05:01

Yes, hire me, I want to work with you guys.

00:58:06:23 – 00:58:45:23

So everyone, please make sure to follow her as well as make sure to follow the Portrait System on Instagram and on Facebook. And also, please be sure to check out the blog posts that are associated with our Clubhouse interviews at SuebryceEducation.com/blog. And if you are a member of the Sue Bryce Education and you have any more questions for Bri, Ashleigh, or myself, go tag us on a post in the SBE Facebook group. And if you’re not a member of Sue Bryce Education, and you are interested in learning more about how we can help your business succeed, please email Ella in support at [email protected].

00:58:46:12 – 00:58:49:00

Thanks for joining us and hope you can join us next week.

00:58:49:22 – 00:58:52:29

Thanks. Thanks, Bri. Thanks, Kevin. Thank you guys. Have a good

00:58:53:01 – 00:59:31:00

weekend.

Thanks again for listening today. And don’t forget, you can listen to either me or our special guests every Friday on Club House at 11:00 a.m. Pacific.

Thank you so much for listening to the Portrait System Podcast. Your five-star reviews really help us to continue what we do. So, if you like listening, would you mind giving us a review wherever you listen? I also encourage you to head over to SueBryceEducation.com, where you can find all of the education you need to be a successful photographer. There are over 1,000 on-demand educational videos on things like posing, lighting, styling, retouching, shooting, marketing, sales, business, and self-value. 

There’s also the 90 Day Startup Challenge, plus so many downloads showing hundreds of different poses. We have to-do checklists for your business, lighting PDFs, I mean truly everything to help make you a better photographer and to make you more money. Once again, that’s SueBryceEducation.com.